Georgia Dentel and Grinnell Concerts History, 1960-2001 - Interviews

Bob Render: My breakfast.

Jackie Harris: Oh, yeah, sorry, um... Yeah, thanks for being able to meet with me early this morning. Did you have any questions or did you just want to get started with things?

Render: Uh, I'm ready whenever you are.

Harris: Okay, awesome. Thank you. Um. I'm just going to say this. Oop... yeah.. uh.. Haden's here also. I'm doing all the talking. He's just taking some extra notes. Hey, Hayden.

Render: And where are you?

Harris: We're both in Grinnell right now.

Render: Oh, okay. You're having a Grinnell summer.

Harris: Okay, so the following interview was conducted with Bob Render on behalf of the Georgia Dentel Summer Map for the Grinnell Concerts and Student Life History Project. It took place on June, July 11th on WebEx. It took place on July 11th on WebEx. THe interview is me, Jackie Harris. The legal releases are signed and filed, so we can begin. So, if you could just start off basic introduction, your name, your class year, and where you live now.

Render: Sure. My name is Bob Render. I'm from the class of 1977. I was a history major. I grew up in the Chicago area in Skokie, Illinois, and still reside in Skokie, Illinois.

Harris: Awesome.

Render: I didn't get too far from home.

Harris: So, well, then, I guess, going back and setting some context, can you tell me a little bit about your early life pre-Grinnell and how you ended up deciding to go to college there?

Render: Sure. As I said, I grew up in Skokie, Illinois, and I grew up in a home that was politically active, was a reading home, and so that colored a lot of my future vision of who I would become as a history major and interested in politics. I ran track and cross country in high school. I had lots of friends. And um... interestingly enough, in my high school, until we had what was called, "Open Campus" where you could leave campus during the day to, say, get lunch or wherever you wanted to go, you had to either be in a study hall or you had to be in some activity. And um, I found a niche in that I could go to the college resource room and hang out there and study or just hang out with some friends. So, if we were quiet, we could do it. And so, I hung out there quite a bit. So, I developed this relationship with the woman who ran the College Resource Center. And as I became a junior in high school, the more we talked, I decided that I really would prefer to go to a smaller school and was starting to look at smaller schools. And my parents agreed that if I could get scholarship or a way to defray the extra cost of going to a smaller school, I could go. So, I applied to the University of Illinois, which in those days was a safe state school. It's not anymore. And then started looking at Denison, Grinnell, Carlton, McAllister. And in a conversation with another friend who said she was interested in going to Grinnell, we decided to go out for a weekend. It was a December weekend. And we were stranded in a snowstorm on our visit. We barely got out of Grinnell and then wound up having to stay in Iowa City. And I just, I don't know what it was. I just felt this instant attachment to Grinnell. And after that, you know, after that visit, there was no doubt that's where I wanted to go. And I was going to figure out how I was going to do that. I did mention there was four of us in my family. Three of us were going to be in college at the same time, so this was going to be quite a financial burden on my parents. And so, uh, it was a big deal. And so I wound up with some scholarship, and then I had, I had work. So that comes in later. So for me to keep my status at Grinnell, I had to work. So I washed pots and pans, and then I worked in the food service. And then I worked at the Pub. In fact I ran... Do you know what the Pub is? The Pub was very... it was the first on-campus bar. Because in 1976 and 77, the drinking age was 18 for beer. So by the time I was a senior, I was running the pub, sombody else. So I always had on-campus jobs. So... I don't know what else you want to know but that's basically how it happend. And in, uh.... from the very beginning. I was involved in student government and was a politics person.

Harris: Was that so um... like upon first arriving ot campus... uh... was that like... what were your first impresssions? Like how would you describe the general atmosphere during your time at Grinnell?

Render: Well, to me, the campus physically was beautiful. Then again, I didn't have a lot of perspective. I didn't go on a lot of campus visits. I only went to Grinnell, and I went to University of Wisconsin and University of Illinois for a visit. So I think I was just struck by how small it was. I mean not small, how beautiful it was. But also, I felt this communit immediadetly. The program that I was on, you know, everyone takes a Tutorial. I assume everyone still does. Um and the Tutorial Program I was on had us on campus two weeks before anybody else. So, by the time everyone else arrived, a lot of people thought I was a sophomore or a junior or a senior. Well, sophomore or junior, because I already knew where everything was, because I'd been there for over two weeks. And so, I had a different, little different introduction to Grinnell than most students, most first year students. So, I had this intimate group of friends from that Tutorial, and then got to meet all kinds of different people, and actually started working in the food service, pretty, you know, right away. So, you know, Grinnell's a series of communities, and, you know, I've been working on a lot of different things. And, you know, I'm a very open and outgoing person. So, it was very easy for me to start making friends with the staff, with the people, you know, working in the kitchen, whoever it was. I guess the other impression I got, which is that it was the accessibility of professors and even their families was sort of amazing to me. So, you know, I babysat my professor's kids. I had dinner at my professor's home. I could talk to my professor anytime. And then compare that to some of my other friends who went to larger schools who, you know, barely knew the professor's name, you know, in some of these classes that were so big. So, I guess that was some of my first impressions.I'll also say that I'm a big bike rider,I suppose. And I still am, and I brought a bicycle to campus. ANd um... I just remember being this vision of riding around town and just coming to the end of town. At the end of town there was a cornfield. And that we really were in the cornfield. Like you physically really were. I guess the other thing about Grinnell was that the train came through campus two or three times a day and how cool I thought that was. So.

Harris: Yeah, Yeah. No.

Render: That helps.

Harris: The corn surrounds us everywhere. Um, so, um, I know you mentioned, um, like some, like jobs and responsibilities, uh, you had and, um. You had on campus, um, can you, uh, just talk about, like, uh, some particularly memorable ones, like your favorite, um, responsibilities or, uh, like activities on campus from your time there.

Render: Well, I think there's sort of like two, two parts to your question. So as relates to just the jobs I did, you know, um, there's nothing more miserable than washing pots and pans in the, in the food service. I mean, it's the worst, especially with breakfast is the worst, worst job. Besides having to get up at, you know, in a godly hour, you know, washing the pot that has oatmeal in it is just, you just don't want to do that. Okay, avoid that at all costs. Um, on the other hand, um, so as a, as a First Year, um, I was assigned to the dish crew. The guy who ran her dish crew is still one of my closest friends still lives in Chicago, and he's two years ahead of me. And the first day, I went to work in the, um, work on the dish crew, uh, it's this dish machine. Someone loads the front of the machine, and someone has to take the plates out of the back of the machine. So, um, and that's called, "The Hot End." And I... I was sort of by the front of the machine and he walked in and just said, "You, freshman, go to The Hot End. And I don't think he talked to me the first couple of times that we, that we were working together. Now we're, you know, really close friends. Um, but there was, and so there were three people on the dish crew and on Saturday nights, um, there were the, the, again, I'm not sure how the meal plans all work now, but there were, there were students who had meal plans who lived off campus who only ate on campus on Saturday night. So Saturday night was always a very, very, very busy time. And so, uh, one of the, one of the people in my, in the dish crew was a math major, and he did this calculation. Um, he, he graphed the, when people came, when the rush was, um, and graphed all that and calculated the amount of time we could sit on our butts and do nothing. And I'm not run out of plates and not run out of silverware so that the meal could progress. And I guess I remember sitting out, you know, in the dining hall, talking, drinking coffee and, or whatever, eating ice cream. And, uh, the, the staff coming "We're running out of plates! You're running out of plates!" He's like, "Not yet." And, uh, that would go in and of course, I was fine. So that's to me, very memorable that again, sort of this indication of this, uh, the Grinnell student solving a problem, you know, uh, or, or using his, uh, his skill. Um, uh, and then the other, I guess, memorable thing, you know, was obviously was running The Pub. So, um, now you can imagine, um, uh, there's, you know, kids coming from states where, uh, the drinking age is 21, but you know, now it's in Iowa, it's 18. So there was a big responsability to make sure that people were not overserved and all that part of it. But the other part of it too, that was kind of cool is that, you know, it got crowded. So pretty much everyone knew who I was because if they wanted to get what the, you know, a beer or whatever they wanted, they had to call my name. So even the people who I didn't even know knew who I was. So it was kind of a interesting, uh, thing. And then the pub on Sundays didn't open until late, you know, after dinner, but we would go in there and watch, uh, football games. Me and my friends would just open The Pub and drink beer and watch football games. So, um, as far as activities, yeah, I was always struck by Grinnell's, uh, activity, uh, schedule. And in fact, I think it's something that most students ask about is we're in the middle of nowhere. What do we do? Um, but every weekend there was always music, great movies, uh, concerts. And of course I found out later why we had such an amazing activity program. Um, and that was, uh, uh, and Georgia had a lot to do with that. So, um, yeah, I mean, we didn't just sit around. We, there was a lot to do, and we did it. So.

Harris: Yeah, and well, I guess, um. Yeah, I guess, uh, continuing with sort of that Georgia concerts thread. Um, do you, can you just, uh, but how did you end up becoming involved with the social coordinator role?

Render: Um, so, um, the SGA, uh, had created this position, uh, relatively, I think it was relatively new position. Uh, and, um, you know, I was trying to figure out. I was trying to figure out.. Did I want to be., you know, in the SGA on sort of the policy side. You know, the government side. What else did I want to do? And um, and, um, the person who was going to be becoming the president of SGA, uh, Ruth Montgomery, uh, came to me and said, I think I have a perfect, perfect thing for you. Um, and so, um, it was her suggestion. Um, and, um, I think in some ways it's one of those things where, um, if you have someone who. Has well, first of all, I always had a lot of energy and a lot of opinions. Um, I think in some ways it was a way for her to keep me a little bit more under control. In a funny sort of way. Uh, keep tabs on me. Um, and then, um, the Social Coordinator then had two committees basically. Uh, and three jobs, three or four jobs, but there was a, there was a Films, uh, Group. There was a Concerts, uh, uh, and, and Cances gGoup though. The bands for dances were mostly booked by Georgia. Um, there was the, um, the Fine Arts. I'm calling this the wrong thing, but it was like a Fine arts Committee also. Um, and then there was Skip Day. Those are really the big things. So the Fine Arts Group was people in the community and professors. And it was more, um, I know, once or twice, it was, you know, trio. It was, you know, trios or orchestras or sort of higher level artistic stuff, plays. So I sat on that with Georgia. And Georgia booked all of those activities. And people don't reallly realize, her knowledge of even classical music, and how to book those uh.... that talent as well. And then Skip Day. Do you guys still have Skip Day? So Skip Day, you know, it was once a semester. It was up to the SGA president and the Social Coordinator to decide when Skip Day was. It was typically in the last two weeks before finals. And the idea was to sort of to releave academic pressure and have fun. And so of course, it was very powerful to know when it was. Because people were studying for exams. And when it was announced, there were no class, there were not tests. Everything had to be rescheduled and was totally controlled by the SGA. So, that was a whole lot of fun. Doing the logistics, sharing out what we were going to do and when we were going to do it. Eventually it became only second semester I think. I gues you don't even do it anymore. So I learned how to delegate and gets lots of people to do lots of things. And uh, put a team together that you could trust because everybody wants to know when it was. So.. uh.. anyway, I joked that I would. You know that when they pick a pope, different colors of smoke comes up. You know when they haven't decided it's black smoke and when they have it's white smoke. So I just said, "Just watch for the color of the smoke, and you'll know when it is." Anyway.

Harris: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I guess then, um. As the so, uh. What was. Uh, yeah, what was your first impression of Georgia? Uh, did you, uh, yeah. When, when did you two first meet and what was that like?

Render: So actually, uh, I. Uh, found out I was going to be the social coordinator. The end of, um, my, uh, junior year. Um, uh, and so I got to talk to her on the phone. Uh, and of course the first thing that uh, you know, you, you, you learned about Georgia was that she was really not comfortable doing things in-person. She much preferred to talk on the phone. Which is obviously very quirky. Uh, and for me, I kept saying, "Well, why don't we just, you know, meet in town for coffee? Why don't we, you know, let's just get together." And she's like, "Well, you know, I got to take care of my mother and you know, this, that, and the other thing." And she was just sort of very reclusive and just really preferred. She had an office on campus, but I can't remember. I probably counted my hand the times that she, I met her or saw her there. So it was very rare that you, you saw her on campus. Um, uh, you would, you could see her in town driving her 1963 Ford Falcon, uh, wearing sunglasses and gloves. You know, cut off it with her fingertips to drive the, uh, steering wheel. So she was a very, um, unique individual from that point of view. Um, but, uh, obviously brilliant and, um, uh, conversations with Georgia, uh, we were never short. So I had to literally, um, clear, you know, make sure I had enough time, allowed enough time. And then I always had to have a strategy if I needed to get off the phone. Uh, so I didn't offend her and make sure I got off the phone. So, um, so a lot of those calls. What I would do is the, the SGA office was in The Forum, um, and there was a corridor, uh, outside this, this office, and there was a wall phone, um, right there. So, you know, again, you know, the way the, the PABX phone system worked was that there are only phones on the floors. There were not phones in anybody's rooms. No one had cell phones. So if you wanted to call another extension, you picked up the phone and the operator came on and you'd say extension to two, six, four, and then they would transfer you. It was very, very archaic. And, but that's how it worked. And if you wanted an outside line, you had to request an outside line. It was very, very strange. So, um, so I would go to the office, uh, say three o'clock in the afternoon, uh, and meet with some people. And then, uh, it was time to talk to George about what we were going to do. Maybe we were planning the next month. Maybe we were, you know, there was some issue. And, um, so I would sit on the floor, uh, that, that phone had a long cable and I would talk to Georgia. That was, that was probably 60% of the time. That's where I talked to Georgia. I mean, a lot. And one of the reasons was I, uh, I lived off campus and I had a phone, but it was expensive to use the phone. So I didn't want to use my phone in my apartment. It was too expensive to talk to Georgia. In fact, uh, I reluctantly gave her my phone number because I was worried about how long I was going to be on the phone with her. So it's funny.

Harris: Um, and then I guess additionally, um. Were... before you personally met Georgia, were you, um, uh, was there any sort of preconceived notion, um, like students or faculty had you were aware of? Like, had you heard the name Georgia Dentel at all before?

Render: Only only through, um, being about in the SGA. Um, this is good government, but I, I'd never really, I never really had ever talked to her, met her, or, you know, again, she was not exactly on campus a lot. Um, so, um, and the other thing, the only other reason I sort of knew her name was, um, because of her unique personality. Um, she didn't have a lot of, um, um, the administration often tried to get rid of her. Um, you know, at least twice while I was there. Um, we'll talk about more about that later. Um, I think they just felt like they wanted someone who was more accessible to staff and students from that point of view. That was their impression. But yet they just didn't really know that Georgia did have this impact on students. It just wasn't always the way they traditionally thought how that would work. So it was on the phone or, um, in some, in other ways. So, um, so Georgia actually talked to lots of students, you know, I just didn't know that. Anyway so no, I really didn't know of her that well til I was picked to be social coordinator.

Harris: That's interesting. Yeah. Um, well, okay, if, um, since, uh, you said students as a whole, like, uh, there wasn't much of a, like, consensus on Georgia, but what would you would you say there? How would you say, um. Uh, students felt about, uh, the social programming at Grinnell at the time?

Render: So, I want to make sure I'm clear. Georgia had very strong faculty relationships. Um, some which, you know, to the very end of her life. And so I think there were, there were definitely elements of the faculty who were highly supportive of her and that came into play later when they really wanted to get rid of her, and um replace her with a man who was really not qualified to do the job that she was doing. Um, um, it's just that I just think her, her, uh, the, the knowledge of students of her was more limited because she wasn't more of a presence physically on campus. That was my point. Um, again, when I applied, I was quite concerned, you know, to people like leave campus every weekend, because there's nothing to do. Or do they stay on campus and they said, "Oh no, we have a really good program." Um, and so, uh, and the program is really run by students. That totally blew me away. And I think the quality of the program, uh, you know, you know, right away was impressive and amazing with a, um, limited budget. So my budget for, for the entire social coordinator budget was less than $40,000 in 1977. So you'd have to figure out what that is in today's dollars, but it wasn't a whole lot of money. And so that was the other thing was, was trying to piece together who was available, when we could get them, and what we could pay for them. And that was, again, just Georgia's genius was figuring out how to do that. From say, the film's point of view. Um, you know, this is the, again, olden times where you had movies on reels and you showed them. Um, and, uh, those prices were pretty much always the same. And so you, it was fairly predictable what your film budget was going to be. And we would have these cultural weekends, three or four different times during the year. There was, you know, Black Culture Weekend. Uh, I'm trying to remember something that was a Jewish Cultural Weekend. Um, some of those had some extra funding, uh, uh, and activities, but for the most part, it was coming out of the student activity budget. And, uh, it was about 40 grand to spend on everything. And it was amazing how we got it all done out for that. Such little money. Um, but. You know, we had, let me also say that coming from Chicago, um, where there was a very strong blues, jazz and folk scene, and also being closer to Grinnell. Um, a lot of the acts that wound up coming to Grinnell were groups. I knew because they came from Chicago or had performed a lot at Chicago. And so, um, that came into play later, uh, when we were trying to decide who, who to bring to campus. Um, it was, it was good because, um, myself and our concert people knew who a lot of the up-and-coming groups were. That's what we wanted. We wanted people who were on the way up that were going to be good, already good, are going to be on the way up because we could afford them. Once they got really, really good, that wasn't going to happen. So, when Bruce Springsteen played at Grinnell in 1975, you want to guess what we paid for Bruce Springsteen and the East Street Band?

Harris: Is it?

Hayden Suarez-Davis: I think I know this. 20, 2500, I think

Render: 2500 is absolutely correct. And I happen to be in on Grinnell-in-London. And so I, I did not go to this concert. I've seen one of the great regrets of Grinnell, probably the top three. Um, but I was in London and on the, that was like no early November. And like, like a week or two later, he's on the cover of Time and Newsweek. And, um, and in an article about the concert in Rolling Stone. So it was pretty kind of cool, you know? So that's just an example. So, um, I'm sorry, my answers are long winded, but that was a big deal. How good our program was. And you know what? It also was educational for all the students because the variety of the music and a lot of music people had never heard of before. There was world music. It was, it was pretty amazing. You know, um, the lineup. Um, and I, I can, we get the years mixed up, but it was, it was pretty amazing.

Harris: No. And thank you for your, for your thorough answers as well. I, it's helpful for the oral history. So, um, can you, um, what was the, can you describe more of like the process of, uh, like personally working with Georgia to get all of these, uh, acts and bands to campus?

Render: Sure. So, uh, some of this work was done, uh, with committee where we would make a list of who we were interested in, uh, who might be available. Uh, but also then Georgia had, um, her own list, her own influences, uh, some of what she had personal relationships with either the managers or members of the, with a group. So for example, she, uh, had strong personal relationships with, um, a guy named Percy Heath, who was in something called, "The Modern Jazz Quartet." And, you know, write that one down, you know, you might want to take a listen to some of their music. Um, and, um, so he can't, that they came, um, I think they came twice in four years. Um, or they would also then refer other musicians to Georgia or their, or their management would. And actually the, the part of the, the Springsteen story was that the, um, the manager that was managing Springsteen at the time also managed a group called "Orleans." And Orleans had maybe two, they weren't very good, but they had like two hits, you know, like "Dance with Me" and those, something else. Well, anyway, the weekend that they were supposed to come, um, they had a chance to, to, to record, uh, some recording and then play a gig. And so they wanted to switch and, uh, she just said, "Well, I'll do that, but I want Springsteen in the fall." So she did a horse trade with, with that manager. Um, but she had built up these, um, favors from either the managers, the groups, the venues. So she, to all the venues in the Midwest, the major venues, because then when she want, like, like we would say, "We want to get, um, uh, we want to get, um, I don't remember. Um, okay. What was his name? Oh, um, Marsalis, um, Winton Marsalies and we want to get him". And so she would then get all the supporting dates lined up, but almost always we got Saturday night, which was amazing. Okay. So these are all these crazy things that she was able to do. So we would, so it really was sort of, um, it wasn't a very, uh, straightforward process. We would just make the list. We would talk about it. Um, and then we would figure out the calendar. We'd work around holidays, breaks, finals, midterms. Um, and then, you know, try to fit it all together. Um, keeping in mind that when the band would come to play Grinnell, uh, people had to often pick them up at the airport. Or had to, uh, get them settled in their hotel and get, make sure they had their meals, which was also a lot of fun, but it was, you know, entire organization in time. So it was like, who's going to do that? Um, who's going to make sure that they, you know, after the show, they get where they're supposed to go, not get in trouble. And, um, it occurred sometimes. Um, and then, um, you know, make sure they got out of town. So there was, there was a lot of that organization that had to be done as well. So it wasn't exactly this, you know, checklist, checklist, checklist, checklist, but, but, you know, there was some of that. Also, some of the bands, um, had some very odd requests, and they were actually in their contracts. So, you know, Frank Sinatra actually had in his contracts that he wanted tootsie pops in his dressing room for every show but no brown tootsie pops. That was in his contract. So, some of these contracts had stuff like certain kinds of liquor they wanted in their, in the dressing room. Of course, you know, only someone 21 could go do that. And then you had to go to the state liquor store to buy it. Um, there were other things they wanted that we, um, had to work around because they were at the time not legal. Um, so stuff like that. So we had, we had Georgia was coordinating all that. So. Made it interesting.

Harris: Uh, can you, what were so specifically, uh, what were Georgia's, um, like designated responsibilities in, in all of that? Like what were, yeah.

Render: So I, you know, I don't know exactly all the things that she did that were not, uh, specific to this program. Uh, and I'm sure over time that changed, you know, there was things she did, uh, in her earlier in her career Grinnell that, that, that. I don't know all the things that she did. Okay. But, um, you know, she was negotiating the contracts. Um, she was, um, ensuring, you know, she was scouting talent, um, and having people scout talent for her. A lot of the people who had graduated from Grinnell who were, you know, Concert Chair people or involved in the program stayed in the industry. So, in fact, if you were to sort of look at this list of who were Concert Chair people and who were Social Coordinators, um, it's pretty, pretty impressive. So my, the people who are concert chairmen when I was social coordinator, Dan Hexter was the manager for Charlie Pride and other entertainers. And Pat Irwin, who has come back to campus many times, uh, plays, plays in the B-52s. And, um, and has done all, he wrote the music for a show called, "Dexter." I don't know if you've ever heard of that. It was on Showtime. So he's pretty famous. Um, uh, there are others who are record executives who were, um, uh, so, so she had this whole network of people that she was always cultivating and, and working with. So a lot of time on the phone, um, uh, then she worked faculty, um, and was a resource. She was also, that was another big part of her job. She was just a resource to faculty in any discipline that required anything that had to do with, you know, performing arts where say a professor wanted, um, materials or maybe even wanted a performance, uh, like, you know, in a Shakespeare or English or something, you know, a course. And, of course, they would, they would go to Georgia and, and she would help them with, with that part of it. Um, also, she was surprisingly, she's a very good writer. And, um, so, um, you know, again, if you were sort of in her world, uh, you were, she was helping students write their papers and, um, you know, again, I don't know if that was in her job description. I don't even know what it was, you know? So, um, it's kind of, you know, others might know that more formally. I didn't know what it was. So. Y

Harris: Yeah. In, in all of the, uh, like records we have of her, her job, her job title keeps changing over and over again, so it tracks. Um, would you, uh, the, uh, obviously the, um... all of the, the phone-remote thing is, um, pretty significant, but were there other and what other aspects of Georgia's person- personality or work style were interesting or unique?

Render: So I was trying to figure out how I was going to get to this, but now you've given me the opportunity. So obviously we would talk on the phone about business, you know, what we needed to get done. Uh, what was coming, um, barely talked about herself or her family, but occasionally would. Um, and then always asked about mine. So, a lot of the calls were just "What's on your mind? What are you thinking about? What's... how's your..., you know, what's going on in your classes?" And there was a period of time when, um, my father and I were not getting along particularly well. And, uh, is, should not be surprising. Um, uh, and so a lot of conversation about that. And, um, uh, conversation about. Uh, my, my, uh, relationship life, uh, and discussions more than my wife even knows about her. Um, so Georgia was an incredible listener. And so, and wasn't, um, I tend to be, when I'm giving advice, I tend to be more reactive. Something comes in my head. I'm worried I'm going to forget it, or it's right in my head the way I want to say it. So I say it. And sometimes, you know, the best thing about being a good listener listeners is they, they don't react right away. They, they listen to get the whole piece of the story before they start asking questions. Good listeners ask good questions. So I think that I learned a lot from her on how to ask good questions and be more patient and be a more patient listener. Um, because she was such a, she was so good at it. So now it's Graduation. And, um, my parents are coming and we're having this whole discussion about how my parents are coming and, uh, and things are fine now and she wants to meet my dad. And so, uh, I was honored and surprised, but I lived off campus. And so she drove over to my apartment, uh, where my parents were to me, to talk to my dad. And the two of them went off and talked for a little while. And then, um, and then she got in her Ford Falcon and drove, you know, we wanted to have lunch with her. She didn't want to do it. And off she went. So, um, you know, I don't really know what she said to my dad. He never really said anything, but it was that that was interesting that she was so wanting to meet my dad and find out who he was as sort of an, you know, key to sort of like who I was. Very interesting. So..um... I think that um, an underated skill is being able to asses people um, for various purposes. You know, is this a potential friend? Is this someone who is going to be an ally? Someone I can work with? Someone I can trust? And that's in life, business, wherever you are. And I think that skill is underrated that I learned from her. Like, who can... because I would say to her, "Did you sign a contract for that?" You know, and she goes, "Oh no, I know so and so... that's not going to be a problem." The artistis always had contracts but if she was cutting some deal with University of Iowa. Um you know, so somebody would play there Friday or another Saturday, uh, that was all done over the phone as all her relatioinships etc... And it was like, how do you even trust that person? I don't know, you just read them. There are certain ques they give you. So that was another, I would say, unappreciated skill in general is, you know, how to learn to trust people. So, too much of this, you know, doesn't let you spend enough time talking to people to figure them out. I don't know if you have heard of a book called "Blink." Ever heard of a book called, "Blink"? Uh... Short, you should read it. It's really basically about how we are wired as human beings and when we meet somebody the first thing we do is asses if they are going to kill us. It is sort of this threat assesement. So we learn a lot about a person that we meet for the first time. That first period or first few minutes that we are with them or see them. That is sort of how we are wired internally, and that impression, um, it's an intersting book, so, um. What else you got?

Harris: Yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, I just one more, I, one more follow up with that sort of thread. Um, I believe I do. I think it was Kit Wall, um, had mentioned, um, that, uh, at least, um, from her point of view, you seemed, uh, to be, um, like uniquely close with Georgia compared to, uh, like any, any other Grinnell students. Other Grinnell students that she was aware of was that was that something you felt at all? Or did you, uh, like, like how did, how did you view your relationship with Georgia?

Render: Um, well, first of all, uh, I, I guess I didn't really think about that or realize that till much later. Um, that there were other people in SGA or other people would held this position that, um, weren't as open to being on the phone as much as I was with her. Um, so I think just from the volume of time we spent together on the phone, but also what we talked about. Um, so I think that, you know, it was pretty, as I mentioned, you know, my parents, my, my student, you know, my work, my personal relationships. Um, what was going on in the world? What was I going to do? Um, I think from that point of view, you know, we were pretty close. I also had some of those relationships with professors also. So, uh, Professor Kasimow, who is a religion professor, um, to this day, still, still in touch with him. Um, Professor Moyer. So some of the, some of the oldies, but goodies are still sort of kicking around. Um, we're still there. Um, but not, not sort of to the intensity of, you know, what I would talk about. Georgia and, you know, um, I, I think it's interesting. I don't think this changes. You know, there are some people who go to school. They know exactly what they want to do. You know, they get through school, they're going to go to med school, they go to law school. They're, they're going to be an engineer. They should just have it sort of the path down. And then, um, then there's a lot of students that have no idea what they're going to do. Um, and they're just going to see what happens. Um, and, um, and, um, and. And I, I actually, what I going to college, I had no idea what I was going to do. Not a clue. And so I just didn't really even know what my talents were. And, and you're going to Grinnell, you, you, you certainly, you learn to write. That's the most important thing. Biggest skill. Assimulate data. And think critically. And write. And I do that every day. I'm about to do it when I get off the phone with you, this call with you. Um, and so it's you, you, there's a lot of angst involved with not knowing what you're going to do. And, um, you know, hopefully over time you find an interest. You, you, there's a skill. There's something comes along. And so by the time I started talking to Georgia regularly, um, I decided there were some things that I was interested in doing. And, you know, next thing I know, you know, I get a letter from, you know, somebody from city of Chicago, um, inviting me to come talk to them, which was done arranged by Georgia. I had no idea she was going to do it. So stuff like that, you know, um, so I, I would say that that's sort of what we talked about and what, what we, um, her interest in sort of keeping me calm, uh, or less anxious was important.

Harris: I, I think the one thing that sticks out to me most from all the accounts of Georgia I've like read in the S and B and stuff is just like how intensely she cares about, uh, her community and the people around her.

Render: Right.

Harris: Yeah, sort of, uh, I guess a little bit transitioning though. Um, during, uh, I, I, you mentioned, um, the Springsteen Concert being a regret of yours, um, from Grinnell were there. Um, I guess on sort of the opposite end where was there a concert that like stuck out as like, like particularly fun or a concert you planned that went well just...

Render: So, um, there's a couple. Um, so there was a show by a group called, "The Persuasions." Persuasions. So another sort of, uh, uh, uh, trend that was early on. Uh, so The Persuasions were an acapella group. And of course now, you know, sort of acapella sort of sweeping the country. There's maybe a little passe now, but Persuasions were, um, um, uh, you know, uh, four black men, uh, who were, uh, again, some connection... friends of Georgia. Uh, and they, um, it was like watching a version of The Four Tops or, uh, but it was, but, but they were making all the sounds and it was kind of soulful or whatever. And so, um, picked them up at the airport, um, in the, in the college van, uh, brought them in for the show and they were going to do two shows. So, and the reason they did that is they didn't want to do it in a big venue. They want, so they did in the South Lounge of the, of The Forum. So maybe you could have two hundred and fifty people in there at one time, maybe at the most 200. So it was, they're going to be small shows. And they literally, um, there were, there were tickets. For those, for that show. I don't know why we did it that way, but this was what they, they, they did not. They did not, they limit, they wanted to limit how many people could come to the show. So. They do the first show. I get to come out and, uh, introduce them, which is like. The coolest thing in the world. And then they're going to change outfits because they're moving around, they're sweating and everyone's in their outfit. And one of them, them, it was like a leisure suit. The zipper was stuck. And so now do we, wow, what are we going to do? And so, um, an old trick, uh, you know, talking about my parents was, you know, stuck zipper. You get a bar of soap and you rub it on the teeth of the zipper and you sort of lubricate the zipper. And so I went down into the kitchen or the bed. I went somewhere, got a bar of soap. Fix the zipper. The show goes on. And then for the last, the last song, uh, uh, Joe Washington says, "Well, you know, without Robert, there's no show because he, you know, he, we had a wardrobe issue and he fixed it. So come on out." So I got to sing the last song, um, with The Persuasions. Um, so fast forward now a couple years. Uh, uh, I'm in Chicago. I'm out at a club with my now wife and The Persuasions are playing and I've told her the story, which she does not believe. And in between sets, Joe Washington is in the bar. And I walk up to him and he looks at me and he goes, "Hey, Robert!" Just like that. And then he goes, "Is this your lady?" "Yes." He goes, "Man, you saved the day." And that, that was it. So from that, then on, my wife pretty much believes every story I tell her. So I, it's, it was great credibility. So that's, that's right up there with, uh, you know, a memory of something related to a concert. Um, otherwise there were just some amazing, amazing concerts, um, just for the music. And, uh, that was probably the most involved I got in, uh, you know, the whole process in, in, in solving a problem. And then to have the guy remember, uh, the story, you know, and instantly recognize me was pretty cool. So, um, I guess the only other thing I'll tell you is that, um, if ever, there's an actress, her name is Julie Harris. And Julie Harris, at the time, was pretty famous. And the, there was a on- person show, uh, about Emily Dickinson. And so this was another coup, uh, between Georgia and Professor Don Smith and the, and the Arts Committee to bring this one-person show to Grinnell. Um, a lot of fundraising and all kinds of activity to get this to happen. Um, so, um, so again, there was some very specific instructions from her. She stayed at Grinnell house, and she had a dog. And the dog had to be walked several times. And who was in charge of walking the dog? So I had to go over to Grinnell House, walk the dog, and then I had a report back to Julie Harris on whether the dog pooped or peed. And I even asked her if she wanted me to tell her and, you know, submit this in writing. She thought about itided then decided not to. She was. A real hat. Well, I won't use that. It's a strong word. She was very standoffish. But when, when it was all said and done, um, I think that there was a meeting before she went on and Georgia was there and, um, whatever that, wherever that was, Georgia just smoothed it all over and everything was fine. But I got to walk Julie Harris's dog, which was about, was, you know, a small little dog. A small little annoying dog.

Harris: Yeah, definitely not as fun as getting to, getting to play on the last song on stage, but

Render: That's right. Sing a acapella song. Uh...

Harris: The Persuasions?

Render: The Persuasions. The song was "Chain Gang."

Harris: Hm.

Render: Know that song?

Harris: I don't think so, but I'll write it down.

Render: That's the sound of a man working on a Chain Gang.

Harris: Oh, no, no, no. Okay.

Suarez-Davis: I was going to say, I think Sam Cook performed that on the, uh,

Render: That is a Sam Cook song. That is correct. You are absolutely... you are two for two.

Harris: He is our concerts chair.

Render: Well, that's awesome.

Harris: Um, Oh, uh, yeah, I, um, so you said that..

Render: Oh, I have one another story when you're ready, when you're ready. Okay. So the, another passion I have was actually was radio and I actually thought I was going to try to have a career in radio. I was interested in radio. So, uh, KDIC, I see was a 10-watt station and several KDIC stories, but, um, you know, had to go, you had to get your license to, to be on the air. And, you know, as a junior, I had really, I had really terrible time slot. As a senior, I had a show Sunday afternoons and, um, I interviewed Georgia on my show. Um, Um, and that was another highlight. Um, it was only for, I don't know, maybe 10 minutes at the most. Um, of course, uh, over the phone, which was technologically challenging, but, and there was no, I don't think there's any tape of it. Um, I, I, I, in fact, yeah, the only way I taped my own show was I brought a cassette, portable cassette radio with me into the studio and tape my own show that way. Um, itt was primitive but that was the other another Georgia highlight was as a senior uh interviewing her on the radio.

Harris: Do you remember any details from that interview sticking out particularly?

Render: Well we it was it was it was the day after a uh a concert that was uh if memory serves me it was um I think it was Steve Goodman and John Prine together. So we talked a lot about that. So um anyway

Harris: Yeah, Yeah.

Render: It was after a memorable concert. I can't remember which one it was it was either that one or it might have been um oh you know it might have been uh what's his name? Um The Revolution Will Not Be Televised um...

Harris: Gil Scott-Heron?

Render: Gil Scott-Heron another yes I think it might have might have been that one that was another amazing amazing amazing show. Um I think he just recently died, um the last couple years. And uh if you've never heard that tune so like talk about an early rapper you know this is 1977, pretty interesting.

Suarez-Davis: Bob, I actually just uh, I just checked my list of um of concerts and it looks like uh Gil Scott-Heron played in February of 1977 so that would that would totally line up then

Render: That sounds right that it might have been that, you know? So it was, I just remember there was a show that night before and it was Sunday afternoon so um that sounds right

Harris: Yeah, Gil Scott-Heron and Georgia interview in one weekend is pretty fun.

Render: Yeah.

Haris: Um yeah uh I wanted to also um ask a follow-up about the Julie Harris um thing though because you mentioned um that uh Georgia and Don Smith were pushing really hard to bring her to campus. Was that like um I I guess um my question is uh like how how much did Georgia's like personal interests um like play into the programming? Uh.... like yeah yeah... like what she ended up getting booked?

Render: A lot, a lot, I mean you know again you're the you're the you know sort of the advisor at the top of the pyramid but your your objective is to listen and bring consensus. So it's like "okay" and again it's a great skill because if you have ideas but you don't in the end if everyone knows that your idea is going to rule the day then they're not going to bring up their ideas because like what's the point, right? So the, you know, the trick a good leader... one of the good tricks of a good leader is to make sure everyone participates, and then, if you decide your idea is what... the one you want to use then everyone feels at least invested that that you maybe that is the best idea or we're gonna that's how we're going to go forward and that's that's that's exactly what she did. So I think she... all along thought for the timing, the budget that this was the this was something great that we should do um um I'm sure and Dom was sort of like the faculty rep and maybe you could ask his rep his recollections of this. But I'm pretty sure that that once they were sort of aligned it was not going to be hard for the rest of the committee to fall in line and agree that this is what we were going to do even though we knew that Julie Harris was a difficult person and um to work with and very particular and her contract was very particular um uh including you know in her contract that someon would walk her dog. So so I would just say that you know again how many times of that do I remember going to a meeting of that group. Maybe two times you know two times in the year. Not a lot, you know? So um some of that planning had been done even the year before because to get like The Mirror Court Trio or to get one of these other uh it was an opera person you know you needed you know you didn't do that in two months you needed 18 months to do it. To get them, you know? So um another, another just quickie and I know we have to go so um oh god don't get old, um what the hell was her name? Um oh there was there was one other person that we wanted to get and we had her all lined up. I have to think of who it was and then she got a phone call and was going to be on Saturday Night Live. And so we didn't... so we had to cancel that that concert uh and I got to remember who it was. It's so funny because the first one that came to my mind is Tracy Chapman but it wasn't Tracy Chapman but she reminded me of Tracy Tracy Chapman I I can't remember who it was I could email you who it was but um and that was the kind of work and people Georgia was finding that were these up and coming people that you know that we would get and um so anyway.

Harris: And uh

Render: Anything else?

Harris: Yeah yeah, I guess just one other aspect of the college to touch on. Um how much did like yeah how much did the college's financial situation uh play into these meetings? And how did you guys work around that?

Render: Well I never thought the college was in any kind of financial distress. I mean the uh is that... this is at a time when the endowment was just starting to really explode. Um and you know relationship between uh Joe Rosenfield and Warren Buffett both being from Omaha, Nebraska uh or never never went to Grinnell but he was very good friends with a very important alum who um the Younkers department stores like Younkers dorm um uh. And so the endowment was growing. So I never had the impression there was that. But we had tight budgets. So if we wanted to do something, we had to, you know, move money around, or figure out where we're going to get money from wherever we're going to get it. And so that was the other thing was that there was always little uh professors had little budgets for themselves... departmental budgets for certain things and so she would you know do what she had to do to get some of that extra money to make sure she had the money to do what she wanted to do. So um... it wasn't like you know that we could raise taxes or raise fees in the middle of the year/ We couldn't. We had to figure out other ways to um to get the funds, you know. Now I remember some calls like that like,. "Oh shoot, we're short 300. What are we going to do? You know can't we get can we do this? Can we get that?" And we figure it out how to how to do it you know so that was another skill that you know you had to learn was you know how are you going to if you want to get what you want you got to figure out how you know what you got to identify what you need and then you know rally the your your your partners to get what you need. So all great life lessons, you know? You don't realize until you really look back and go "Oh! I guess i learned that there." You know, so...

Harris: So yeah um yeah so I I don't mean to if you need to go I don't mean to keep you, but

Render: I have a few more minutes.

Harris: Okay awesome, um then in that case uh can you just speak to uh uh I you mentioned uh Georgia had almost been fired twice while you were there um yeah just controversies incidents surrounding her...

Yeah, one quick second. Okay sorry about that so I've got five minutes.

Harris: Thank you.

Render: Uh... I don't know as much about the first sort of attempt but the second attempt was um actually uh the administration decided it was going to fire three women. Um one had to do what... Kathy Mccluskey, and Georgia, and there was a third woman. Her name is escaping me. And Kathy was more um Outdoor Programs and and and and nobody was full-time so um uh, and they wanted to replace her with a a gentleman who uh like I said, I don't think he was qualified, and it was there's no other way to describe, It it was it was a it was a sexist and a discriminatory activity. Um and so there was an Open Forum in the South Lounge um packed house um and uh several people spoke including me. Uh and um and then we rallied all kinds of pressure uh on the administration, and they relented and actually the guy who was going to take over those jobs resigned and left um. And um uh his major qualifications, he ran the intramural sports program on campus. Like how hard is that to do? Okay so um uh so that there's probably if you look in the S&B uh there there is definitely going there there will definitely be stuff in there uh in the S&B about this Open Forum um if you look for it, I'm sure it's in there. Um and then I don't know exactly how it got redone but uh Waldo, you ever heard the name Waldo Walker? Another interesting character. Um, he you know had been a professor, he was administrator um, and he was I think an important sort of transitional figure from the standpoint that he was sort of a traditional administrator, but he sort of also sort of knew that Grinnell was different and that things had to be different. And so um he's in and more should be sort of looked at about him because of the way he handled campus protest also um in light of sort of the last year. In terms of um protest at the time was for divestment in South Africa, a lot of activity about that. And students actually occupied the Administration Office for a couple hours in a very peaceful way but um it did happen um. And he sort of diffused it all and um and I think in this situation he was sort of the voice of reason. In in but I don't know exactly the mechanics of how it was decided to reverse this bad decision, but it was reversed and I I think he had a a lot to do with it. Um and the president at the time wound up leaving sort of um in disgrace, a Richard Turner. It was not a great leadership time for the college.

Harris: Um in uh I guess in that case is there anything else uh you wanted to make sure to bring up about your time at Grinnell or with Georgia, we haven't covered?

Render: Um, no I mean it's probably the most enjoyable time of my life other than having kids and a family and you know I've been very blessed in my life. Um met some of my best friends still um for Grinnell we used to call it "The Grinnell Experience" and it really was. And so you know, I hope for you it is similar uh and your your your compadres you know I know life has changed, but it was it was at my college experience was different than most of my friends. Lke totally different. To them it was like another version of high school so, hang on one second. I'm just finishing give me one second okay? Hang on. So um, I would say that that's that's what I'll leave you with. It was a a major impact on my uh my life all the way through, from friends to choices I made, how I live today. I just finished a very good book by Eric Larson about the start of the Civil War. I still read lots of history books. Um so I gotta take this um if there's more feel free to reach out to me. Okay?

Harris: Awesome thank you again so much...

Render: All right.

Harris: Meeting with us today, yeah.

Render: All right.

Suarez-Davis: Thanks Bob

Render: Take care.

Harris: You too.