Georgia Dentel and Grinnell Concerts History, 1960-2001 - Interviews

Miles Brown: Great. All right. So today it is 10:02 AM on July 17, 2025. This is an interview with Dan Klatz for the Georgia Dentel and Grinnell Concerts Oral History Project. So thank you so much for being here. I just kind of first off to get kind of a general understanding. Can you kind of tell me what brought you to Grinnell and like a little bit of background about yourself?

Dan Klatz: Well, what brought me to Grinnell? Well, they took me and that's basically, and I actually, I originally went to Macalester College and that was an unsuccessful experience. This is before people knew things like taking a gap year ,and I was somebody who shouldn't, shouldn't, probably shouldn't have gone to school, but I did, and that didn't work out. And then I spent the next, I guess, three years out of school, and I was actually working at a record store in Chicago, and somebody who I worked with there had just graduated from Grinnell. And he was like, "You should go to Grinnell." And I met the, they had, maybe they still do, had an admissions person in the Chicago area. And I went to her house and we hit it off. And, and like I said, they, they took me. I actually never went and visited the school. So I didn't really, I mean, I, I felt like I had a had a pretty good idea of what it was like, but yeah, yeah. So they gave me, I felt like they gave me a second chance, and I was grateful for that. Um. And, and, uh, yeah, yeah, it was a good fit.

Brown: I can especially to relate to going into Grinnell culture and not knowing a ton about it. And then kind of, I mean, personally, I fell in love with it by the end. But you mentioned, um, that you kind of were interested in music early on and were involved in the music scene kind of before Grinnell.Did you go into Grinnell the idea of getting involved with like KDIC or like as a Concert Chair, were those like general goals of yours?

Klatz: No, I didn't even know about that that much. I mean, I, you know, there was some, um, there was some lore about concerts at Grinnell by then. Um, you know, the Springsteen thing had already happened. So that was kind of a big deal. Um, but I, I didn't really think about that that much. I, I did know that I, I would probably have a radio show. Um, cause I was, I was, I was pretty interested in, in, in, in music and actually I'm, I'm the child of a musician. My father was a classical musician in the Chicago Symphony. So, um, as, as, as, as just as a part of my life, culturally speaking, it sort of was entwined in my my ,my, uh, I guess personal identity music was just a big part of my life and popular music was sort of. You know, my way of stepping away from the family. What family's culture was, um. Uh, and, um, but, but I was, but I was pretty enthusiastic about. Um. Uh. Not just, uh, uh, what was, um contemporary at the time in, in, in. Uh, rock and pop music, but I had a pretty strong interest in jazz and blues. Um. And, and I sort of learned three years working in a record store, you, you, you learn a lot. You get exposed to a lot. Uh, you interact, uh, back when that was the only way people could acquire music was actually to go into a store. And so you meet people with lots of different kinds of interest. Um. Uh, very eclectic interest. Um. And so that was, that was good exposure and I was interested in that. I was, I was not thinking like that's something I was going to do as a career. It was definitely a vocation, just something I was interested in, but I didn't really know that much about. You know, how that would play out at Grinnell. Or I didn't think about it at least.

Brown: That's, that's really interesting. I think one really interesting thing as we do this Concerts Oral Project is kind of seeing the diverse music range. I mean, like, cause it's not like we have Springsteen, but also like Herbie Hancock, Louis Armstrong was there like 2 decades before. Did you feel like other Grinnellians shared that kind of diverse music taste? Was there a pretty popular jazz scene or just blues in general? Uh, at Grinnell when you arrived?

Klatz: Uh, I, I, I wouldn't say, uh, there were, there were some people interested. There were people, you know, people were, um, people would go to everything on campus. And I think it had always been the case that blue because of proximity to Chicago blues artists came to Grinnell, you know, they'd be on tour and they would, they would come. So, and, and that's, it's party music. People would go and, and dance and so people in general, people like that, but whether there were, how many people were actually interested in blues and jazz. That was a pretty finite number of people. Not, not big. Much more typically people were interetsted in popular music at the time.

Brown: Would you say that, like, you know, with that unique music taste that you're coming to the scene, um, you have a radio station, right? And you later become Concerts Chair. Are you trying to make an active effort to get more jazz and blues artists played on the radio and also coming to Grinnell or kind of what was your main focus when you were doing these roles?

Klatz: Well, when I, when I had a radio show, I had a radio show. They gave me the Friday night radio show, which was at the time that was, that was a good slot. That was like when people were done with the week and hanging out. So it was, uh, you know, and this is, this is before. This is before there was like such a thing as an oldies radio station. And there weren't, there weren't things like that. So I, I owned a pretty big record collection, so I could play a lot of oldies and that's music that people like. People were really into Motown, old R&B, you know, um, uh, 60s rock and pop. Um, uh, there was a, certainly a punk scene at Grinnell at the time. So that's what I was doing for the radio show. But by the time it wasn't, I didn't become Concert Chair until my second and third years. I was at Grinnell for three years because I did bring some credits with me. Um, so when I, um, applied to be the Concert Chair, it was at that point that I had more intentionality around trying to bring, um, I, I wanted to expand what was, was offered and what people were exposed to. Um, and it was a little bit selfish, you know, I had my, I want, I wanted to see. I wanted to see some of these people have them come. Um, that would not have been the popular mandate. The more popular thing was bring, bring bands on Saturday night that people want to dance to. Um, and maybe, you know, once in a while, bring a folk musician or bring, you know, something else. But, um, I, I don't, you know, I actually don't recall during that first year that I was there that the musical offerings were especially. Um, diverse for lack of a better term. They were sort of within the same range of things. So yes, at that point, when I decided that I wanted to be, I was interested in being Concerts Chair. I had some intentionality around trying to diversify the kind of music that came.

Brown: Really interesting. Especially because one big thing we're focusing on the project is how the Concerts Chair role kind of adapts and changes throughout the years. Did you think in that role? Did you have enough power? Was it kind of your interest mainly guiding the Concerts that were being brought in? Or was there..., were you working with the SGA to choose that or more with Georgia? Like how much power and decision making did you have over who was getting booked at Grinnell the time?

Klatz: That first year I had a ton of power and it turned out, you know, Georgia was kind of charged up about bringing some different kinds of things in. She was, she was, she was, you know, a very interesting person. And she had, you know, all kinds of connections in, in the industry. And so if I'd say, you know, let's look into bringing one, one of the people who I remember from that first year is this avant-garde jazz guitarist named, "James Blood Ulmer." And James Blood Ulmer had played with Ornette Coleman, who's like the founder of free jazz. And, and she was, she was all into it. She, she, she was excited about it. Not so much the student body. I mean, people came, but it was not, that's not the most accessible music. You know, I, I was fine with that. I was like, "Hey, that's, you're gonna, you're gonna be exposed to something." I felt like that was the role expose people to something different and, you know, don't be rigid. You've got to, you know, somewhat hit the ground. You know, somewhat cater to people's taste. So that first year, that was definitely the case. They actually wanted me to moderate that in the second year. And there was, they picked somebody, I can't even remember his name to be a co-chair with me. And he was much more all about popular music. And, and I understood they wanted, they wanted it to be moderated a little bit. There were students who, you know, couldn't get enthusiastic about some of, some of the alternative stuff. Like one, one, I mean, I can think of, it's just the way it was at the time. But one of the concerts we booked in Georgia, pulled this off, was, was John Lee Hooker, the, the, the blues guitar player. And John Lee Hooker is legendary. He's totally legendary. The thing is, he wasn't, he wasn't on tour and he didn't have a band, but she convinced them to have him fly out. He lived in San Francisco. So we flew him out. He played solo, which he hadn't done probably since the forties. He played a solo show in the Forum. And it was, it was awesome. Maybe 75 people came. You know, it, it, I, I can say now, you know, with some, I mean, life knowledge, that was pretty special. Not, not a lot of people who are alive today can say they saw John Lee Hooker play solo by himself. So that, that, there was that tension of trying to do things that, you know, I thought, and certainly Georgia thought were exciting and worthwhile. And it, it might not have had that much popular appeal.

Brown: Something really special, it seems like about being in the, in the Concert Chair working with Georgia Dentel. I mean, we get people from like the early seventies, late sixties, talking about like having one-on-one interactions with like Cecil Taylor or hanging out with Herbie Hancock afterwards. I mean, you're kind of in that role, facilitating this artist. Were you talking one-on-one with, with these musicians? Like, do you have any memories of interacting with them? Um, any kind of stories from that era or was there kind of other people who were facilitating that role?

Klatz: Oh, no, no, no. I mean, I was, you, your Concert Chair, you're the host. You're the host for the band. I mean, it, for example, with John Lee Hooker, I picked him up at the airport. Um, and, uh, so we, you know, had drive time with him, hung out with him. When we took him back to the airport, he wanted to take us out to breakfast together. That was, I mean, that was thrilling. There, there was just, that was, that was, that was definitely a huge perk. Um, basically with all the musicians who came, um, you know, if, if, if, if, if they were, uh, into it, which oftentimes they were, we would invite them to some off campus party afterwards. I mean, that ability to see some of these people and then they're at a college party with you. Um, that had more popular appeal. Whether people like the music or not hanging out with these, you know, when you're, when you're 20 years old and these are, you know, impressive and successful musicians. That's, that's pretty awesome.

Brown: Breakfast with John Lee Hooker. That's a unique one. I don't know if everyone has that story. That's pretty impressive. Um, I, I guess kind of on that role. That's kind of like one of the, the positive sides, but you've also mentioned, you know, working with SGA, were you finding yourself kind of in conflict with the administration as well, or was that kind of just kind of an easy rubber stamp process? Like, how, how is it working with them and scheduling concerts?

Klatz: No, that was fine. That was all fine. I mean, there was some at the time. I don't know if this is the case anymore. There were a couple of big. Uh, campus parties several times a year. One was called. I think at the time it was called, "The Loose Hall Ball." And, um, there was, there was, so there, anyway, there were a couple that were, uh, traditional. There was an Alice in Wonderland Party that happened in the Spring. And so those were kind of earmarked as events and it was the job of the Concert Chair to get the music for it. But then, you know, the. There was some other team that was coordinating other parts of the party. It was all no, no working, working with the students was fine. There was a lot of tension in the two years that I worked. Uh, as Concerts Chair between Georgia Dentel and the administration. For sure. There was, there was, there was, there was just. Weird shit going on. Uh, um, they didn't really know what to do with her. I mean, she, she, she was not. Maybe at one point in time in her early tenure in the Sixties, you know, she was like. On campus. Active, vivacious, but by the time I was there in the Eighties, she, she had no. On, she did all of her work from home. I met her twice. Um, she clearly had mental health issues around. Um, well, I don't know all of what they were, but she certainly had. Um, uh, a fear of germs. Um, she would wrap herself in plastic under her clothes. I mean, there was some real eccentric stuff. And, um, you know, I, I would say now. Uh, I think I would. I didn't. Wouldn't have said this at the time. The administration didn't know what to do with her. They had this person who was kind of essential. Because she had all these connections, and she could pull all this stuff off. And it wasn't just the students she was working with. She would book Classical Concerts for the music department. She would, she would organize all kinds of, uh, uh, different things. And the, and the school. Um, you know, the school. The school was not as successful in 1982 as it is now. They were, it was, they did not have the endowment they had. Uh, they were working. They had to work a lot harder to make sure they had a full enrollment. And so programming was a huge draw. How are you going to get people into the middle of Iowa? How are you going to get with, you know, when they have choices? Why would they do it? Well, how about this great programming, uh, in. And she also supported that the film programming. Um, uh, and so, you know, I mean, there were, there were five movies a night on campus. There was great movies. She would get things for faculty, but also for the students who ran the film program. And she did it for the concert program. And so she was pretty essential. And yet, um, I think they were flummoxed by, What do you do with an employee who won't come to campus? Doesn't go to meetings. You know, is not, you know, by today's standards, you might scratch your head and say, what do you mean? She can work remotely. She can do all the parts of the job. What's with the problem. But back then. And so, and she did a lot of venting about her tensions with the administration. She definitely felt, um, like she was being, I think she felt like she was being removed. Um, so there are no tensions among the students in terms of any of the programming stuff, at least that I remember other than the fact that after that first year, they added another Concert Chair because they didn't want as much of the. For lack of a better term, some of the avant-garde stuff. Um, and that was okay. I mean, I, I, I didn't, I didn't really take that too personally. Yeah. I was happy that I had had a chance to do more of it and then we did a little bit less of it.

Brown: Think specifically on Concert planning and Georgia Dentel role in that I think by the early 70s, almost all the stories we've heard is that she's almost completely remote and people that are close working relationships with her. Like you only had like one to two in-person interactions at the time. Uh, did she have a lot of close relationships with the student body or was it really only like you and the Film Chair that she was working with and kind of a follow up to that. If people didn't have close relationships, did they at least know of her? Like, was she, I don't say like mythologize, but do people know about this person that was getting and facilitating a lot of these major concerts?

Klatz: I think the only people who knew about her were ilke people who knew me or the Film Chair. You know, in our circles, but I don't think it was, I don't think most people knew. Um, yeah, and I don't think I don't. I mean, I think people were happy that there was a, a, a, a culturally rich music and film scene. I, I, I know that people were happy with that, but I don't know that they knew how to attribute it. I think faculty did. I definitely think faculty knew who she was and what she was doing for the institution. She had some very close confidants within the faculty that I, that as I remember it. Um, um, but no, I don't, I don't think students knew.

Brown: Um, it's so really interesting. I mean, like, it's so remote work is so obvious here with like, Zoom and I guess Webex in this case, 24/7, but I mean, this is the early, the early 80s. Like, that's just not really a thing that exists as much. And I guess kind of on that point, like, you're working with Georgia, I'm guessing on a pretty regular basis through the phone. At least that's that's how other people have done it. What was...

Klatz: Totally. Long.

Brown: Like one-on-one? Like how long were these calls? Like, what would you guys talk about?

Klatz: Hours. Sometimes hours. You know, this was her. This was her, social, interpersonal existence was through these calls. And so I, I, I kind of knew that at the time. Um, that, you know, I wasn't just the Concert Chair. I was like her friend. Um, to talk to, and yes, it was. Sometimes a little bit burdensome. But, but, um, it was so wacky that that appealed to me. Um, but I could imagine people who it would like the, the person who I was Concerts Chair with, uh, after. I, he, he talked to me, not to her. I, I don't remember him ever having much in the way of conversations with her. That would not have worked for him. She would have been too out there. Um, but you know, she, she would. Um, you know, she did a lot of reminiscing about the past and lots. She had lots of stories and they were pretty engaging and interesting and, you know, she did. Um, this is how the work was done. She needed to be making calls to all these different agencies and connecting and find out, you know, what's out there, what's on tour, what's available. Um, and so, um, that was interesting too, even, even if it didn't work out, it was interesting to find out, you know, what she knew was going on out in the world and, you know, what we could consider as possibilities for, for the school.

Brown: Yeah, you know, Georgia, as I mean, like the stories you get from people of like hours and hours long phone calls and kind of her ability to tell and keep conversations going is pretty incredible. And by this time in her career, right, she's been working at the college for two decades. They've tried to, like, fire her one time in the early 70s and forced her into like a semi-employed status. She's only working part time. I believe at this point. I believe there was a second attempt from what we can tell to get her completely just fired again by the current administration. And it seems like for what we've heard that students kind of stood up and defended her along with faculty. Do you remember that at all? At your time?

Klatz: Yes, I do. I do. I mean, I, you know. It was never of course, of course, you know why would any, we would never have gotten the administration's point of view. They would never have told us, "This is what's going on." Or what we're concerned about, so I maybe had her point of view. Um. But definetly, um, you know, I think they didn't know what to do with her. I just, I think they were flummoxed by the whole thing. So, you know, were they going to actually fire her? Maybe she certainly perceived that. Or, and I don't know if you could ever find anybody in the administration to actually talk about this or whether they actually have documentation that they would ever share, because it is obviously a personnel matter. So, they're sort of hemmed in by that. But it would be interesting to know, you know, what was going on? What did you folks think? Did you think, you know, she's a kook and we can't have her doing that? I mean, they had to know that she was able to produce results that were meaningful to the community. And I don't just mean students. Because they're definitely, you know, if, if, if, if, if, if a faculty member wanted some weird, esoteric film to screen, she could track it down. And that's, that was, that was a, those back then, you know, pre, pre-digital world access to that kind of material took people with skills and connections. It just not everybody, you know, now you can look up, you just, you know, you do a search and find the film and somebody's got it somewhere and you can track it down. Not then. So, you know, I don't know the answer of, did they feel like. We need her, but we don't, we want somebody more functional. I mean, and why wouldn't they? I, I, I, I, I get it. I get it why they would want somebody who like holds office hours and is on campus and is meeting with the students and, you know, doing something more engaging and could they live with what they had? Yeah. I mean, maybe, maybe you'll find out more and maybe somebody in the administration will talk about it, but definitely there was tension around it. And, and. And of course she had no real bargaining power. She wasn't going to like, well, fine, I'm going to go where you're not going to go somewhere else. She, she, she. That her life was in Grinnell, Iowa. She, she wasn't going anywhere. So it's not like she had. Other than goodwill and the positive feelings of some students and faculty to back her up. But she hadn't. Yeah, I mean, I, I imagine, you know, she didn't even understand what her leverage was in terms of you guys need me. I think she felt like, "You guys need me," but I don't think, you know, that she knew knew exactly how to use that politically to her advantage.

Brown: Pretty incredible. I mean, the administration, especially from what we can tell in the mid 70s and then early and mid 80s at certain times seemed really dead set on letting her go. And I mean, I think what's really become apparent in this project is how close those bonds were, not just with students, but also faculty members and how that either personal lobbying or like open letters in the S&B was really fundamental and kind of getting the administration to back off, but kind of also that point of what the administration wanted to get rid of her. Like that is a mystery. We're really trying to figure out, like, either accessibility or financing issues has been like hinted at by certain administration officials, but we've never really been able to get like a concrete answer on that. So that's something we are definitely very interested in finding out more. I guess kind of to pivot a little bit more here. Kind of more interested in like some of the stories you have maybe about concerts. Were there any memorable concerts, a personal favorite member you have of either working with a musician or performance that they had?

Klatz: Well, I told you about the John Lee Hooker. That's at the top of the list. That that that that that was pretty extraordinary. You know, my second year of doing it for one of those. One of those big parties we booked somebody, somebody who just he actually died just just a couple of months ago. David Johansen. David Johansen had been the singer in this free punk glam band from New York called, "The New York Dolls." New York Dolls were a seminal band in the early 70s from New York. I mean, if you look them up, you'll see that like long, long before some cultural norms around men dressing as women. That was their whole thing. That's why they were the New York Dolls and they and they played this. I mean, it really it predates all the British punk stuff. This, you know, pretty high energy, crazy music and then and then he went on to have a solo career and then he actually reinvented himself under the name Buster Poindexter. Anyway, he came with his band. They, they were, they were pretty great. Yeah, that was, that was quite memorable and that was a, they were, they were a pretty big name at the time. Lots of blues musicians came through. Coco Taylor. Coco Taylor is this legendary Chicago blues woman. She had a, she was big girl. Big woman with a goold tooth in front, big, gold tooth in front. And she was awesome. Luther Allison was this legendary Chicago, blues guitar player, who actually, ended up, and I think when he came to Grinnell, this was the case. He, he, you know, in, in, in the US, he would play colleges. He would play blues clubs in Chicago. What he, I think he became a French citizen. In France, he played arenas. He was like, you know, this., A worshiped figure in, in, in, in, in, in France. And he, he was, he was, he was great. And Chicago blues musician that was memorable. And I remember he's one of those ones who I remember him. Coming to an off-campus party and plopping himself in like, you know, you know, like it's a college house. It's got like old, nasty, beat-up furniture that, you know, only a college student would own. He sat in some big BarcaLounger in the middle of the living room with, you know, maybe 100 people crammed into this house and just sort of held court. As you would think, you know, a bunch of kids were sort of in awe of him. And that was pretty, that was, that was pretty special. Let me think of some other ones that were special. We got this rockabilly band from Scotlan to come. They were called" The Shakin' Pyramids." And they were phenomenal. They were phenomenal. Four guys with thick brogues playing this roots, American music, and they were great at it. They was really good. They were so good. They were so good. I don't think we knew how good they would be. They played on a Saturday night in the Forum. It was, you know, a dance party, and they were so good and people were so into it that we got them to come back like they were looping back around on a tour. And we had what then never happened, which is we had a Thursday night concert. It's just that wasn't done at the time. But we were like, people liked them so much. Let's do it again. Yeah, I mean, those are ones that come to mind.

Brown: It's funny that you mentioned the Shakin' Pyramids, because that, that was the having them on a school night. We found a couple of S&B articles actually about that, because I don't think some people in the administration were too thrilled about it being on a school night. And one, Jim Tederman, actually, one of the former, I think, Dean of Student Affairs, tried to make it now like a rule that no dance could be held on a school night. But what became pretty clear from some of the articles, it was one of those popular concerts of the year. And after a bit of back and forth, it seems like that was kind of resolved, with just like more communication with the administration.

Klatz: That was funny. Jim Tederman was Georgia's nemesis. That's the person who Georgia felt like was persecuting her. She couldn't stand him. You know, and he was. You know, I would from my perspective, then I would call him a bureaucrat. You know, he was not in touch with sort of the soul of the school. And there was tension around that, you know, but I do want to say that I suspect, I don't know this for a fact, but I think that the president at the time, who was George Drake, who was an alum, a Rhodes Scholar, a real bi... George Drake was the college professor out of central casting. You know, he just and he was a very sort of soft-spoken guy. I think he was quite fond of Georgia. And I think he had these deans who were like, you know, pulling their hair out because they didn't know what to do. And my guess is that he was like, "Fine, tear your hair out, but we're not going to... we're not going to fire her." Yeah, yeah, I don't remember that that was... I don't remember that that Thursday night thing was that much of a controversy but your saying it, makes me think, "Yeah, yeah, I think that was sort of an issue." I think I don't I can't now I'm not sure I I I I don't want to say definitively because I don't think my memory is clear enough. But perhaps Georgia knew that getting them to come back was sort of not an allowed thing and we did it anyway.

Brown: I think from what we can pick up, it's just like that was the only time that they are available. And I mean, she's getting these incredible bands. Right. I mean, But it's really interesting to kind of... to um... to hear about these... I mean like George Drake, like he was like the president of the 80s. And we have so much stuff named after him to this day. But kind of I mean, the one thing is just like, I'd love to know what the relationship was between Drake and Georgia Dentel and her relationship with those officials, but finding that's obviously a little bit harder. Um...

Klatz: I think in some ways they may have been peers. I mean, I think if you were to map out a timeline, I mean, George Drake went to Grinnell. So, and I think he probably graduated in the late 50s. And I just think if you were to look at, at, you know, their ages and the time that they came to work at Grinnell, it may have been pretty much in a lot, you know, he may have started there around the same time she did. And so, you know, yeah, that would be interesting to find out what their relationship was.

Brown: Yeah, I there's, there's a lot of mystery here. That's very, that's very, it's one of my favorite parts of this project is kind of, is kind of putting together Georgia Dentel as a person. I guess kind of on that topic by the end of your second year, you said you're sharing your Concerts Chair role with another person, but you think you were the main person communicating and working with Georgia Dentel for booking concerts and stuff by that time.

Klatz: Yes, yeah, I did the talking. I mean, I would meet with this other guy and, you know, he. He basically had a few things that he really wanted, like he, he definitely was enthusiastic about that David Johansson concert. That was a, you know, a name person and a marquee. And I think there were, I can't remember some of the other things, but he had a few things he wanted the rest. He didn't really care that much about.

Brown: I guess kind of on that point, like, as you ended Grinnell, I mean, did you was Georgia Dentel in your relationship strictly focused on music? I mean, a lot of people develop like a closer personal relationship talking about a lot more of life in general. Or, I mean, were these long stories really just focused on Grinnell music scene, booking? I mean, I'm sure there's a time to talk about just on that topic.

Klatz: Yeah, I think that was mainly it. I mean, I guess, I guess, I mean, because the topic of her life and her concerns about how she was treated came up, it was personal in that way, whether she got that much more personal. And we, I also could talk with her quite a bit about classical music, which she was very interested in. And, and she knew what my father did. And actually, my father played a concert at the school then, I don't know if they still do, had a in-residence trio, a very good trio. And it was three professors, a pianist, a cellist, and a violinist. And it turned out, my father knew the violinist because they had played together in this. There used to be this very famous cellist named Pablo Casals, Spanish cellist. And he started in the 50s, a music festival in Puerto Rico, which he had adopted as his home. And so there was a six week classical music festival in Puerto Rico that may still go on because of all his festival. Anyway, my father had played in that. And the violinist from Grinnell in the Mirecourt Trio had also played in it. And so they knew each other. And so somehow they arranged with each other for to, for my father to come and play with the trio. It was basically a quartet. And Georgia was very interested in that. She, she knew quite a bit about classical music too. So we would talk about that as well.

Brown: Did you book classical concerts ever or have like orchestras come or anything like that to campus during your time?

Klatz: You know what? I didn't she did. It wasn't through the Concerts Chair. There was a whole other fund. That booked classical concerts. I don't know exactly who. Maybe it was the Chair of the Music Department. I'm not sure exactly. Who she worked with, but there was some excellent concerts that came. You know, that was another thing where, I mean, I, I think a lot of that. Was for faculty, you know, in the same way, you know, popular music concerts were a way of attracting students to be in the middle of Iowa. Having cultural richness on campus of a different kind was pretty important for attracting and retaining faculty. Cause you'd go to these concerts and. It was townspeople, faculty, and a smattering of students. I mean, obviously there were students. students who played music, who were interested in classical music, but out of a, you know, student population of, of 1200, you're talking about a subset of less than two hundred. It's not, that's not the bread and butter of the of the student body, but. You know, too bad because you, you had an opportunity of being exposed to things that you would be hard pressed even living in a big city to. Have access to because in a lot of cases, classical music concerts were prohibitively expensive, at least in the United States.

Brown: It's kind of, I think, personally, the most shocking thing about the whole Georgia and most impressive thing is just being able to get so many music acts to rural Iowa. I mean, she had connections in San Francisco, LA, Chicago and New York City, these personal relationships with agents over years that like, and the Springsteen, the Ramones, The Police. I mean, and then you're got four orchestras coming. It's just coming. It's it's it's pretty incredible. And there's some of the recordings we have of the music played there. It's yeah, it's it's it's just and it's all before obviously the Internet. But but I guess kind of as one final point is kind of to just to end on that we kind of like to ask is what were your biggest takeaways you think kind of now looking back from Grinnell that you carried on throughout your life, either as Concerts Chair or just kind of in general? What were the lessons that you learned from this time?

Klatz: Well, it was a it was a great opportunity. I mean, you know, like I said, it was a little bit indulgent. Here are things that I'm interested in and that might be given the the the the the the ways and the means to to execute them. So that was that was that was a I felt that was a privileged experience. And, you know, actually, if if if if at some point in time, I flirted with the idea might I like to work in this industry? I think the experience of of of being involved in it in Grinnell convinced me that that wouldn't have been a good fit for me. There's too much bullshit. It was just I mean, it is it's there's a lot of bullshit and that would have that would have. I mean, you know, the people who do it can tolerate that and they don't mind it. Um, and that I, I, I would have minded that. Um. Uh, what else? Um, um. Uh, hold on the second. Uh, um. Yeah, and, uh, uh, uh, uh, more generally, uh, my experience at Grinnell, um. Uh, I, I, I, I felt, um. I, I, I, like I said at the beginning, I, I, I, I, I felt, uh, like Grinnell gave me a second chance. Um, and when you, when you kind of screw up, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're beholden to people who are willing to, you know, at least take some kind of risk with you and they were. And so I was, I was, I was, I was pretty grateful for that. And I. And I felt like I got, um, uh, a, a pretty decent education. And, um, and, you know, when I went back that, that's sort of what I was wanting. I mean, I had gotten, um, you know, when I left school and started working at a record store in the beginning, it was like the dream job. It really was, um, wow, working in a record store and, you know, being around all those things that seemed so compelling. And it turned out to be, um, uh, I mean, it was an enjoyable job for a while, but it, it was not, uh, very fulfilling. I, I, I needed more, I just needed more, uh, uh, uh, substance in my life. And I think Grinnell gave me that in the form of, you know, um, a liberal arts education that sort of, um, uh, helped to, um, develop critical thinking skills and not just knowledge, but, you know, actual, um, I mean, that that's what, what I feel about liberal arts in general is that, um, uh, its strength lies in its ability. The, the fact that students are making connections across all kinds of disciplines disciplines are such an artificial. edifice, you know, uh, um, uh, and when you can make connections between them, you really feel like your brain is integrating the world in a different way. You know, um, um, and the other thing is, uh, I mean, it just, it, it wasn't, I didn't plan it this way, but, uh, at the very end of my time in Grinnell, I took this education class and I got placed in the Grinnell Elementary School in a first grade and that I loved it. I loved being in elementary school and that's what I ended up doing for my career. Um, I mean, I don't think I knew that at the time. I just was like, I like, I like this. I think I could do this some more and I can now say, so, you know, I do think Grinnell encourages you to take some, get out of your zone a little bit. Do some things that are different, try something different. Um, and it turned out in my case that by trying that it was, I was able to make a connection that wound up being, um, you know, an integral part of my life. And, and I also, I'm married to somebody who I went to Grinnell with, so that, that's kind of a big deal too.

Brown: Yeah, I, I, you know, heading into senior year, I, I, first of all, I couldn't agree more with the liberal arts side of Grinnell. That's why I'm here and I, I love it all. But I think, I think a great point you touched on is not only has Grinnell kind of helped me get at least a better idea of what I want to do, but especially these last three years, a better idea of what I really don't want to do. Right. Of, of trying out different things and kind of stumbling and stumbling until eventually I got, I'm really into history now. And I think I might pursue like a PhD or something, but really kind of letting me figure out, uh, my own interest and imperfections. So I, I can relate to that, um, I guess kind of our final question is, is there anything that you think we missed or you want to add about your time at Grinnell through concerts or Georgia Dentel or any, any stories or anything? Or you think we've kind of covered it?

Klatz: No, I think if you can unearth the story of exactly what was going on. You know, uh, uh, uh, if people would talk honestly, if they could, or if there's anybody there who even knows of, you know, exactly what the, what were the tensions and, you know, I, I mean, I don't think there's any question that, you know, her, what she gave to the institution was invaluable. It, it, it, it, it, it just, you know, uh, uh, uh, what she gave, they needed pretty desperately. And I don't, I don't know if the people who were sort of had their issues with, with, uh, her struggles, um, ever could acknowledge that. I don't know, I don't know, maybe you can unearth it. Um, it would be, it would be great if the college like felt like. I mean, this is like all history. Can you get people to confront the past in a way that doesn't. You don't have to defend positions that that weren't good just because that's not. Uh, that's not that that's, you don't have to be loyal to the institution. By defending positions that might have not worked out much more interesting would be to explain the rationale why people have. You know, I'm going to assume they were people of good faith. They thought they were doing their job. They thought they were doing what they needed to do. It would be helpful to understand more about that just because I think we do better when we have a clear picture of exactly what was going on. But I understand that people become defensive about those things and so when people are defensive, they tend to clam up and not want to offer much.

Brown: Figuring out what happened and kind of looking into that is, uh a top personal interest of mine and priority, but thank you so much. I appreciate that. If you could say this for one second, Morgan, can we stop the recording here? If that works, we'll just...