Georgia Dentel and Grinnell Concerts History, 1960-2001 - Interviews

Ronald Taylor: Record it. Okay, there we go.

Miles Brown: Okay.

Taylor: And did you set the transcript recording on as well? Because I'm.

Brown: Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor: All right. So we should be okay.

Brown: Yeah. All right. Here we go.

Perlman: Very cool.

Brown: Okay. I can take it away. So today is September 18th, 2025, 9:06 a.m. My name is Miles Brown. On behalf of the George Dentel Project, thank you. I'm here with Sam Perlman. Just to start off the base, you've received a release form and have provided to us at this time.

Perlman: I did.

Brown: Okay, great. Then we can kind of start. I just kind of as an introduction, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background before you came to Grinnell?

Perlman: Um... Sure. So my name is Sam Perlman. Grinnell College class of nineteen ninety. I was a music major with an undeclared concentration in Russian and Eastern European studies. I'm a native of Chicago. I attended the University of Chicago Lab Schools, K-12, and that's how I wound up coming to Grinnell.

Brown: So you you come to Grinnell and immediately are you interested in music? Like are you set on being a music major? Is that kind of something you stumble into?

Perlman: No, one hundred percent. I wanted to be a music major. I did not want to be a musician, but I wanted to work in the music business. And that was one hundred percent my career objective. And Ultimately, that's what I did after college. But yeah, I wanted to be a music major and yeah.

Brown: Do you remember your first impressions of the Grinnell concert scene, Grinnell music in general?

Perlman: Actually, I can't say that I really recall anything in particular. I got involved with student government and SGA pretty early, and ultimately, by the time the end of my sophomore year is when I knew that I wanted to try and become concerts chair. Attached my kind of attached myself to Greg Evans, who was running for SGA president. And With w you know, sort of like, you know, if I felt like if I supported Greg that he would appoint me to be concert chair, and that's kind of how it happened.

Brown: Kind of on that point of concert chair, what would you say was your main motivating factor? Was it just interest in music? Did you want to see a change in the department itself?

Perlman: I certainly I mean, we were I again, my aspiration was to pursue the music industry. So I saw that as a pathway. And I know obviously I know this is the the Georgia Dentel Project. And you are I know you know that that was the changes that occurred as I became Concerts Chair were controversial. And actually, I meant to look back in the old S&B Archives and because, yeah, there were a lot of letters to the editor and there was a lot of back and forth. But the intention was to make have the Concerts Chair and have the concerts program be more student directed and not led by an administrator. And that was that was yeah, that was what we were trying to achieve, was to make that make the con- the SGA concerts program more student-led.

Brown: So you're pushing this effort to like democratize kind of the program. You're setting up a committee kind of or kind of bringing back the committee into focus. Do you remember what it was like to work with other people to book concerts once again? I mean, was that kind of a new process? How did you feel?

Perlman: Yeah, I mean, it was again, it wasn't the the push was to make it more of a student-led effort, to have a Concerts Committee that both actively worked on pursuing artists to bring to campus as well as working on all of the the aspects of of hosting and setting up those concerts, you know, however often we did that. And my recollection Is that then and I and I served as Concerts Chair for two years, one year under Greg Evans, and then the next year with Rob Killion as SGA president. you know, there ultimately was a sort of a separation between SGA Concerts and other concert events that Georgia Dentel did her own programming that was separate from the SGA concerts program.

Brown: Remember, I guess, kind of you're one of the first students kind of to take back concerts and have it as a student-led role where you're the the person doing it, right? Do you remember what it was like to work with agents, kind of booking them. And any memorable stories about booking a band or working with a band in general from this time period?

Perlman: Absolutely. I mean, there were some great things. To this day, one of the greatest shows I've ever seen. And I again, I worked in the music business. I've been a music fan my entire life. I was an active concert goer when I was in high school. and college and worked in the music industry for uh you know uh almost a dozen years oh you know, ten years after college. One of the best shows I've ever seen to this day was when we did Bob Mould from Husker Du. His first solo album was called Workbook. To this day, one of my all time favorie records. And we booked Bob Mould in South Lounge of the Forum. And one of the greatest shows I've ever seen, one of the loudest shows I've ever attended in my life. I mean, and the glass so you know, the glass walls of the South Lounge of the Forum were vibrating. It was that crazy, but it was amazing, amazing show. I I pulled my files. I I thought I had more more things, more memorabilia, but I have the original contract from when we booked De La Soul and Eek-A-Mouse. For Skip Day, and I think it was probably Spring of 89 or Spring of 90. You know, De La Soul shows up and they just happen to bring their friend's A Tribe Called Quest with them and said, "Hey, can these guys perform too?" "We're like, Um, sure, why not?" Chick Corea, the you know, the jazz legend legendary jazz pianist Chick Corea, we had him a couple of times. If you go back into the Cyclone archives, my senior picture in my yearbook is me sitting on the edge of the stage while an Iowa punk band, Full Fathom Five, were doing their sound check in the background behind me. So, yeah, there were great memories. So much fun.

Brown: Wow. So I got a lot to unpack there. I guess, kind of, first question, because we found some stuff. Do you remember there being any issues with De La Soul or kind of handling them and booking them?

Perlman: Yeah, I think they had to get. I think they got like tossed out of their hotel or something that night. I think they were a little rowdy. And this is back when there was like. you know, one hotel up out by the highway.

Brown: Now, did you ever get do you remember talking with any of these guys like out or like Chick Corea? I mean, were you taking anyone out to dinner or anything? Like, what was that like?

Speaker 3: Um, again, it was one of the concerts it I did it didn't do very well in terms of uh attendance, but uh again, a legendary sort of avant-garde jazz artist Ronald Shannon Jackson. We had him in Herrick and yeah, took him out to dinner and There was a little Mexican place right downtown that is obviously long gone, and hanging out with him. I also had a really good and very close working relationship with the Films Chair at that time. What year I think that was my junior year. Um, Mercedes Danforth was the Films Chair. And we colla- we c- sort of sort of collaborated. I think we split split the cost on it, where the the new Batman movie The first Tim Burton Batman movie came out, whatever year that was.

Brown: Pittsburgh Native, actually.

Perlman: What's that?

Brown: He's a Pittsburgh Native, Mike, Michael Keaton.

Perlman: Oh, is he really?

Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Perlman: And I think we split it between our budgets to have Adam West from the old Batman T V show. He came to Grinnell and we showed the old, the original, the Adam West Batman movie, and then had him do a talk on campus, I think in Roberts. is where that happened. And yeah, got to like hang out with him, got to take him to the Longhorn for dinner. And I grew up on that on that show, the old, you know, bam, pow! Yeah, you know, Adam West and Burt Ward as Robin. Yeah, so that was a hoot. Oh, and then we did a bunch of comedians too. I know we did Emo Philips. He was weird. I remember again having to drive to Des Moines, pick him up at the airport, drive him back, and he never broke character. Like, he was his weird character, like the whole time we we I spent with him. And then I remember at the time he was dating Judy Tenuta, another comedian. And he was trying to get me to book Judy Tenuta as well. He was like, "You should really book Judy Tanuda, she's great" And but like in this weird trippy voice, he was yeah, he was was odd.

Brown: Yeah. That's memorable. Oh, yeah. That kind of freaked me out.

Perlman: It would be very weird. Oh, and then I think it was. Was it the same? No, I anyway, we did another Skip Day. We did the comedian Dick Gregory, the comedian and activist, Dick Gregory. That was outside on Mac Field. So that was probably that would that have been Relays. My probably my senior year. Again, I wish I didn't have the time. I would love to have gone back, gone through the S&B archives, not only to read some of that You know, that back and forth in the controversy and the letters to the editor. But also to go back and look at the concert lineup because I don't remember all the things we booked. But in you know, so that would have been From 88 from Fall of 88 to Spring of 90 was when I was concerts chair, and I would love to go back and see because, like I said, I don't even remember all the things I booked. I remember booking a Cajun artist, Wayne Toups and Zyda Cajun, for Family Weekend. Back then, it was still called Parents' Weekend. I remember doing that down in Gardner Lounge. We did Book of Love in Herrick. We did Timbuk Three. "The Future's So Bright, I Gotta Wear Shades," was their big hit. And ironically, Pat McDonald from Timbuk 3 is from the same town of same part of Wisconsin where I now live. And I have subsequently met him and reminded him: "Like, hey, remember that time you played in Grinnell, Grinnell College in Grinnell, Iowa back in. In 1988,?" was like, "I was the guy who booked you for that show."

Brown: That's crazy. Well, it's interesting because my focus specifically on this project has been like the history of Concerts Chair and how it's intertwined with self-government. Right, and a big part of that is seeing how the role has shifted from the 60s to 70s to 80s to 90s, and it's drastically different throughout this whole time period, right? But what I'm hearing from you is It seems like as the Concert Chair, you were also booking or at least helping book non-musical acts, right? Was that an informal role and just working alongside other Chair members? Or was that a part of your job just in SGA in general?

Perlman: I think I if I recall correctly, that was just it was we did that we did comedians as well as as concerts. I mean, it was kind of all wrapped up in one. I honestly don't recall the formal any anything formal. You know, and you know, there obviously Georgia had an amazing career and did great things. And, you know, she can all people will always hang their hats on. You know, The Police. And Springsteen, you know, those were the amazing things that she did. And, you know, there's no doubt. But again, um Greg's emphasis, my emphasis was making it more student-led. You know, in my understanding, and I didn't work with Georgia very much at all. Um I recall I really only recall s speaking with her a couple of times. But my understanding was it was m much you know, she was she had in she had contact with agents. She sort of worked with the Concert Chair, but she sort of like delivered things to the Concerts Chair. And our we wanted it to be like, "No, these are the the students we're having those experiences, picking artists, making those contacts, having those experiences to you know, talk to talk directly to agents." And there were agents that I worked with as an undergrad. who, when I after I graduated and then became an agent myself, people those were my industry contacts. Those were people that I continued to work with and network with, they were part of my network for many years after I graduated. The job that I got, the jobs that the two jobs that I got as a talent agent after graduation were directly related to the work I had done as Concerts Chair. Those were people that I had worked with as Concerts Chair, who I then ultimately went to work with as an agent after college.

Brown: This committee that you were working with to select this whole process and kind of break it down, was this like twenty students, was this like three close people? Was everyone involved?

Perlman: Oh gosh.

Brown: I know I'm getting into the details now so I I get if it's not everything.

Perlman: I don't I mean, I think there was kind of a core group of probably, maybe ten or so. I know Ben Wolauer is the one name that I remember because he became Concerts Chair after I graduated, I think. So he I think he was Concert Chair by like ninety or ninety one. Andy Segren... uh... You are really testing my memory right now. There definitely were other folks involved, but those are those two names for sure were people that I remember who were part of the Concerts Committee and worked with me and then worked with the setup crew, and then working with the Student Affairs Office as well. So it was um Maria Giorgio was the first y- the second year when I was Concert Chair, and I cannot I can see his face, but I cannot remember the name of the guy in The Student Affairs office, who I worked with my freshman year.

Brown: Was it Tederman? That would be the name?

Perlman: No, it was Tederman was. Not he was in Student Affairs. Steve something. Steve something was his name. But again, you talk about the controversy, and I distinctly remember we'd pick up the S&B on Friday and we'd sit in Steve's office with the door closed and read how we were getting bashed in the letters to the editor all the time. I know, um, oh, I had it now, I just lost it. There was an interim professor on campus that year. You're shaking your head. Do you know who it is? But I can't.

Brown: Professor, I have the name on the tip of my tongue, but I know exactly who you've seen, and I've seen the emails and letters he sent to Killion and the S&B.

Perlman: Yes um... And the irony was he was also a graduate of my high school. He was a young, he was an interim professor. He was not like a like regular fac, he was only around for like a year or two. I think he might have been a Grinnell alum as well, but he was definitely He was definitely a Lab alum. Colin, Colin Something was his name. And yeah, he was part of that dog pile of people who were bashing us for throwing Georgia to you know to the side of the road and disregarding all that she had contributed to the college and blah blah blah blah blah and but yeah. Now I am going to spend, you know, a chunk of my day today going back into the S&B Archive. And looking those up.

Brown: Yeah, it was a lively time to break apart, and it was over like two, three years. So guys There's certainly a timeline there of kind of pivoting. I want to focus on that, and I want to focus on George Dentel and your view on that situation. But really quickly, just kind of on your role as Concert Chair, just a couple of things because it's really interesting because you're the first. I would say post-Georgia Concert Chair. And you're very pivotal, and like you are transitioning to a much more student-led 90s view of Concert Chair, or at least one interpretation of it. I guess, kind of, one aspect I'm really interested in is. How you guys chose the venue? I mean like, you have Herrick, The Forum, Gardner...

Perlman: Oh, um, gosh, I think it really depended on the band, on the situation. Um you know, whether we thought it was going to do, whether it was, whether it was going to, you know, what was available. I like you know, like I mentioned Wayne Toups and Zydecage, and I remember doing that was in Gardner Lounge. I don't why we did that in Gardner, um, because it was Family Weekend. Um Obviously, the bigger events were outdoors, Skip Day things where we do things on Mac Field or bigger concerts that we thought were going to do really well, we would do in Darby. And then, you know, coming out of all of that was also at that time the first renovations of ARH were about to happen, and ARH was where we showed movies. That was the that was basically ARH or the North Lounge of the Forum were the two places where movies were screened. And they were about to shut down ARH for the first renovations at the same time where they were trying to transition us away from having concerts in Gardner Lounge because it would get really gross. And again, it was a student-led initiative to say, "Hey, we need a new Film and Concert venue." And that's what drove the creation of the Harris Center. And again, the Harris Center, that was very much a student-led initiative. It was Russ Madison, Kathy Baldwin, myself, and a handful of other people who like went to the went to the administration and then went to the trustees and said, " We need to have this. You're taking Harris, you know, you're taking ARH away. We need to have a dedicated space for student life and student activities, and specifically for movies and concerts" and that led to the building of the Harris Center.

Brown: Were you there for its construction, or like by its creation or the end, or were you kind of? 22:12

Perlman: Yeah, I came back for the dedication. They invited Russ and Kathy and several of us back for the dedication and opening of the Harris Center whenever that was, like ninety ninety late nine I mean, it was after I graduated. So it was after May of ninety, but yeah, probably ninety one when that building was opened. Maybe? I can't.

Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. That's really interesting. So you have, I mean, yeah, I mean, that's Harris is kind of like central now, just the college life. You could say it's like that and Gardner are the two main spaces where concerts are held and for like the huge Concerts, obviously. There's Harris.

Perlman: Right um, yeah, and then, yeah, and then lhortly thereafter is when Darby went away. Well, ten years Later, when Darby went away, so Harris became even more important. But yeah, Darby was our main large concert venue, the old Darby, which is where the Joe is now.

Brown: Right. Right. Right. No, I um I can it's it's it's so wild because you know I'm looking I'm in the HSSC right now. They're newly renovated. Three times you're here for Parents' week, and like it's a behemoth aside, right? And just having to go back and reimagining what Grinnell looked like from an earlier age, and the idea of like the Forum as one of the central hearts of campus. Very different world, I feel like, in a lot of ways.

Perlman: Absolutely. And I didn't say when we were chat chatting earlier, you guys know my son is a first year right now. Trey Perlman, he lives in Norris. He's on Norris second. He's on the soccer team. So, yeah, he's wandering around campus right now, I hope. Wait, what's today? Today's Thursday? Actually, it should be a tutorial.

Brown: Yeah, right. He should be in class right now. Fingers crossed. Okay, so, I guess kind of on that final topic of Georgia Dentel We've covered, I think, a lot of the timeline and kind of the main segments. You know, there was a point, I think you're kind of at the peak of it there, where you're getting a ton of S&B articles. There's emails being sent by even professors to SGA lobbying for maintenance of George Dentel's role. Do you remember having either support or backing from either the college president or from administration within the college itself?

Perlman: Certainly the Student or Student affairs was that was it. I mean SGA worked very closely with Student Affairs, and Student Affairs was absolutely supportive. I mean, they were you know, Jenny was great. I think again, oh, I had it and I lost it again. Jenny was great. Steve Langrood was part of Student Affairs then. Um, Tenny Erickson. Um again, whoever that administrator was, who was my direct contact that first year, yeah, they were I don't I mean, I know I had a very, very good relationship with George Drake. I don't recall having any conversation with him about Georgia, but it may have happened. It probably obviously, it probably bubbled up to the level of Nolan House. I don't recall having a direct conversation with him about it, but yeah, it may have happened. And again, I remember that there was ultimately sort of this detente, or this new arrangement where Georgia had her own budget and she did her programs and SGA concerts were separate from her separated from her, and that was one hundred percent student-led. And yeah, like you said, it was not unrelated to the idea of self-gov. I mean, that's what we wanted it to be. Again, Georgia did great things, but It was student concerts and it was student government, it was student money, and we wanted to control that and have a greater say in the programming. So kind of on that on that timeline or that schedule, by your senior year or so, would you say there was a decisive split between Concerts in Georgia of like you're doing, I mean, but I mean, like, you're programming, like, yeah, that merger happened, okay, okay, yeah, for sure. I mean, pretty much, pretty quickly, once I became concerts chair, it was, "Yep. We're off. We're doing our own thing." Like I said, my recollection is only having a couple of conversations with her as I began to take over and You know, probably, you know, probably saying, "Yeah, thanks. But, you know, this is the direction we're going to go. We want to do this kind of on our own."

Brown: So kind of on that on that timeline or that schedule, by your senior year or so, would you say there was a decisive split between Concerts in Georgia of like you're doing, I mean, but I mean, like, you're programming, like, yeah, that merger happened?

Perlman: Yes

Brown: Ok... Um.

Perlman: I mean, pretty much, pretty quickly, once I became Concerts Chair, it was, yep. We're off. We're doing our own thing. Like I said, my recollection is only having a couple of conversations with her as I began to take over and you know, probably, you know, probably saying, "Yeah, thanks. But, you know, this is the direction we're going to go. We want to do this kind of on our own."

Brown: So you would you say that in SGA there was a set view in SGA, like in that so there's Killion, Evans, right, runs on that ticket. There's you as well. I know the Film Concerts chair was also kind of a part of that from like a different side as well. Would you say, were there others involved in SGA push leading that effort, or would you say that was kind of the... again, I know we're kind of getting into to the details...

Perlman: Again, I think it's probably to my recollection, and again, we're going back into the 1900s here. I think it was pretty much like, yeah. Greg, Rob, myself, Merce. Um, oh, Scott Birnberg was Films Films chair. Um And yeah, it was kind of like, yeah, this is, yeah, we were, that was the path we were going to take.

Brown: Well, I guess kind of, and this is something we kind of ask everyone at the end, is I mean, and you've already kind of touched upon it. You know, you talked about how you had kind of incredible industry contracts that contacts heading into your one of those first jobs in the music industry through this role. But I guess that's on a literal sense, but also like a growing, what did you take away from Grinnell College? I mean, what are the big things that kind of impact you in the sense?

Perlman: That's such a broad question, it's hard to answer. Except I mean, you know, I I am married to a Grinnellian. Um I I Grinnell was is was you know in the seminal experience of my life by far. And I couldn't be happier that our son is there now. And I just checked. He's at the HSSC He did make it to his 8 a.m. class this morning. Yeah, I mean, again, the the the the student-led initiatives, the ability to do independent research as a music major, the ability through SGA to become Concerts Chair which again led directly into my professional career. I mean, that was the start of my career, literally switching sides of the phone from being a buyer to being a seller. Led, you know, to all the things that I wound up doing. So I worked as a talent agent for two different companies in Chicago from 1990 to 1996. End of nineteen ninety six, I moved to New York City to take a job with um the public uh the performing rights organization, ASCAP, the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers. Left ASCAP to go to a couple different music related dot coms, some startups. And then after the bubble burst, and then I wound up connecting with my classmate Mariah Good and moving to Wisconsin. And yeah.

Brown: The rest is history.

Perlman: Yeah.

Brown: That's a ok, that's that's pretty incredible. Thank you so much for taking this time per...

Perlman: Oh, absolutely. It was my pleasure. I don't know, have you talked to Cameo Carlson?

Brown: No, actually. And this is what I was asking for.

Perlman: Is she on your list?

Brown: Okay, I'm going to stop the recording now. And then I'd love to get like some more names and everything. Thank you so much. All right, so I'll..